The Deload Blueprint: Why Pausing Heavy Lifts Triggers Muscle Growth?

Deload. Yeah. And the D stands for discipline, because when we start to go into a deload, we're going to need to discipline ourselves after a heavy-duty periodization of training to actually slow it down so we can recover. Today we're going to talk about some things that will just absolutely make it clear why this is so, so important. Uh, not only we get the sort of, uh, layman's version of, but we'll also get the professional clinician side of the table talking about the physiology and all of the reasons why a deload is absolutely critical for those people who are training at a high intensity, uh, maybe beyond just the average person who's taking a walk around the neighborhood. Craig, we're both guys that spend a lot of time in the gym, always trying to push it to the next level. Progressive overload — eventually that takes a tax on the body. Let's get into it.

Sure. Yeah, absolutely. It's a great topic. I think it's particularly fascinating just given the journey that you've been on for the past 63 days. You had this real intense protocol where you've been really pushing to the next level to achieve a body recomposition and increase your performance. Um, and, uh, I think that, you know, it's — uh, I actually probably have more questions for you than, than maybe you do for me. Um, and so, you know, that may be an interesting area for us to explore today, just looking at what this journey has been like for you and sort of what made you decide to, uh, get into your deload right now. You know, I think that there's plenty of times where people could be on a month-long or a, uh, you know, a 12-week-long protocol where you could fit in a deload and, uh, basically back down on the intensity of the training for a little while to improve adaptation and improve recovery. Uh, maybe even resensitize the body a little bit to some of the work that you've been doing. So, um, walk us through — walk me through, you know, what your whole journey has been like up to now, and, and what made you want to begin the deloading process at this point.

Yeah, the reality is that we entered this, uh, 63-day Supercharger, and it was, you know, built on heavy lifting. Uh, so we knew, look, we're going to go into this and we're going to be training at an intensity that is far beyond what most people are, are going to do. Uh, that's going to have some, uh, great things that happen, and there's also some potential for injury in that. So, you know, we talked about — I started to feel, like, some, some things in some of the tendons, connective tissue. Certainly muscle is going to respond a lot faster than we're going to have, uh, tendons and ligaments be able to keep up. So, one of the things, when we're pushing really heavy weight, um, you know, we're maxing out, the reality is that you're just in a sympathetic, uh, state through a lot of that. And at some point in time, you just have to back off, let the CNS — so central nervous system — uh, as well as the body just sort of, like, take up the nutrients.

I mean, this is the kind of thing where I would say, if I were sitting in your clinic right now, I'd be in the PMF chair, uh, with, you know, heavy-duty PMF sessions, uh, non-stop. I posted on my social media the results of PMF, PEMF. Uh, I don't know. Why do we always call it PMF instead of PEMF? Is it just easier?

I think they make a conjunction out of the E and the M. So, it's PMF.

Yeah. As in — yeah. All right. So, PMF. So, I would be in that PMF chair right now, uh, through this entire 7-day period, unless you told me that's overkill. Um, but, you know, I'm a typical overtrainer. I like to train. I train hard. I really get a lot out of it for me, for my — for who I am. Uh, I can go harder in the gym. And it's just like the same thing we talked about before in the sauna. I don't have this feeling of, I've got to get out of the sauna. I literally have — I have to wear my watch into the sauna so that I know, hey, you've got to exit at this point in time or you're overdoing it.

So, the idea here is, you know, we're not stopping. Uh, I'm still taking the walks. Uh, uh, still doing the, the Peloton rides. Uh, did one last night, and then I did one this morning where I was actually listening to the Pathway to Peak Performance podcast, uh, with Dr. Abid Hussein. And I was so into the episode that I just stopped paying attention to where I was. And all of a sudden, I'm up in three — zone three — and zone four for the majority of the workout.

You do with a Peloton. Yeah.

You would know if you're built to work. That's where your body wants to go. And you have to discipline yourself to say, "No, no, no. We got to keep this down in zone one and two just to get the blood pumping, just to let things going." One of the things I'm not doing is lifting anything upper body. But what is fascinating about it was I was in the, uh, coming out of the shower this morning, and I was like, "Wow, I'm kind of noticing that, uh, this rest and recovery is showing up in this period so quickly." I think that speaks to this notion of recovery where people think, hey, we build muscle in the gym. Uh-uh. We actually build muscle at night.

And so that was the whole impetus for this. We're entering into this next phase, which we're working on, the Calibrate phase, where we take a look at every single thing. So we did blood markers the other day. We went through all the labs. Uh, we've taken a look at all of the scans, and now the next piece will be do another PNOE. Uh, the next piece after that will be to really dial in the macros and micros. Um, and I'm going to use Cronometer, uh, for that particular, um, uh, phase of it, just to track everything. Everything is weighed. It's pretty — I mean, it's pretty intense to actually do that. That's why I don't recommend in a Supercharger that you try to track all of those things. It's people who have been sedentary for a long period of time, or just are getting back to working out, or aren't training as hard as we were. I mean, if you looked at our rings prior to starting this, we were training just as hard, but then we started to add in other things that, uh, really intensified it. Certainly, you know, consistent sauna and stair climbs that are — I mean, those, those stair workouts, when you're doing them on a regular basis, are, uh, something in and of themselves.

So that was the whole idea behind, uh, 63 days. It also falls into that habit-forming f— uh, period of time. So we know the sweet spot is 66 days. I put it at 63 because I've got a six-evolution workup in a year that, uh, basically fits it. So the next one we enter is Calibrate. That's a 49-day, uh, evolution where we're taking a look at everything, every bit of data moving forward, which we've done. And then we're looking at what's the output at the end of that 49-day period to understand, okay, what's going to happen in that next evolution? Where do we need to focus? This is where we get super dialed in and scientific on the training, uh, to achieve a certain goal. One of the cool things was I lost a significant amount of body fat. Not giving it away just yet, because we got to wait a little while to actually see the total results of what's going to happen here. But muscle up, body fat down. Uh, when I saw you in Maryland last, uh, we saw the visceral fat, uh, was where it was, which was in that good range, and now it is significantly better. So, cool, um, and exciting. So there's an earful for you.

Yeah, I mean, it's a very important topic, and it's something probably people, uh, under-consider when it comes to this sort of protocol. You know, everybody needs a deload period. Uh, over time, when you're pushing this amount of weight, when you're working as hard as you have been, inevitably you're going to start to experience a period of time where maybe the same amount of weight starts to feel like it's heavy. Maybe you don't have the explosive capacity that you had earlier in your training regimen. You're going to have persistent, uh, joint tenderness, persistent irritation in your soft tissues, your connective tissues, ligaments, and, um, tendons, and so forth. You may see — if you use a wearable, people may see that they're starting to have a, an increase in their resting heart rate or a steady decline in their, uh, heart rate variability, right? So these are things that ultimately should be clues that, hey, maybe this is time for a deload. And the important thing to consider here is, listen, you can either prescribe yourself a deload, you know, or be forced into a deload because you've exceeded your body's recovery capacity, right? And what happens at that juncture? Well, injury, you know. And you could either take a week, five days to a week, to, to deload effectively, or you could be forced into a five-week deload where you're really having to nurse yourself back to health. So I think it's excellent that you plan that into your protocol, and it, it really speaks to the amount of research that you've done and, and the care that you're putting into this whole project, and, uh, goes without speaking, that's, you know, A-plus effort for sure.

Yeah, I truly appreciate that. And on the injury side of things, it is 100% built out of experience. Me, nine orthopedic surgeries later, what I can tell you is those forced recoveries suck. Um, that is the worst place to be. So, letting off, uh, when it's time to do that is absolutely the right way to do it. And then, you know, the nice thing about it, too, is when you've got the math, you've got it all kind of planned out, you know, sort of like, okay, hey, we're going to drop caloric intake during this period of time. I'm looking for some autophagy. I'm going to increase my, uh, um, you know, fasting period. Uh, so I'm not going to take in as much, and I'm going to do, uh, a little bit, uh, more of a, a span, you know, or shorten my eating window. Uh, not removing all of the stuff, and certainly keeping the protein level where it needs to be, but I'm letting off on, on carbs for sure, because I just don't need that. And especially when I'm in a — what I think is a true two-week evolution recomp, uh, where I'm trying to drop body fat down, slingshot out of that to build back up. The cool thing in that recomp was that I was able to actually add lean mass, uh, 1.8 to — and then down to 1.5 lbs — uh, while dropping a significant amount of visceral fat. Um, and significant is a subjective statement, but also dropping body fat overall. Again, those numbers are going to come out at a later date. Um, you know, you don't want to talk about them at this time, simply because there's a much bigger picture. That'll be far more dramatic.

When I was young, uh, it was super easy to carry sub — to go sub-10 on body fat. I don't think, you know, that that's really a smart idea for a guy my age to be running sub-10 on body fat. I'd love to hear your weigh-in on that, because I think there's this sort of social media world out there that says, "Hey, you should always be, like, so shredded and cut." Uh, I, I would just wonder how healthy that actually is.

Yeah. Um, you know, I have patients in my 40s — in the 40s, 50s, 60s — and it's different per the individual, right? The recommendation is always different. So, you know, as we age, we do want to have a little bit of more fat reserves. So I, I think, you know, optimal for anybody who's really looking to improve performance can be below the 20% body fat, uh, threshold. You know, if somebody's really looking to bring out some vascularity in their lower abdominals and things like that, then you really are looking for, like, you know, 11 to 13% total body fat. I generally think opt— the overall range for optimal metabolic wellness is in the 10 to 20% mark, but it's going to come down to what each individual is trying to achieve, what their goals are, and, um, you know, I think that that's smart. I would agree with you on your own personal goals of not driving them too low. Fat is incredibly hormonally active, right? And so we need some of that hormonal signal to continue to have balance and homeostasis in the body. And, uh, of course, you know, it's insulating too, right? So we, we need it. You know, there's a reason it's there. We want to keep it in check, but we're not trying to eliminate it entirely by any means.

Yeah, 100%. It's interesting, too, because the last numbers we looked at, like, okay, really within range of hitting — that's, it's going to be pretty clear, I think, in this next 49 days we'll hit that lower level. Um, that's, that — that's the stopping point. So that's when, when I want to talk about it, and I want to talk about the full journey down, exactly how that happened. Um, what was the programming? The programming now on the workouts are going to be really dialed. I think a lot of times you can go into the gym with a plan. You think, okay, I — this is the workout that I'm going to do, but invariably, you know, depending on how busy it is in the gym and, um, you know, how long somebody takes on a machine — you see people just sitting there on their phones — you're like, man, you know, you got to be able to call audibles. And that's where an advanced lifter is able to go, okay, I know I've got three or four different exercises I can do for this thing that we were planning on doing, and I can just move to that quickly. Um, at the same time, now we're going to get really structured and take a look at, okay, we know exactly how many, uh, sets we're doing of this particular type of exercise, how many reps, uh, what's the weight, and tracking it all down into it.

Then the same thing on the Cronometer side. So, you know, there's a couple different apps — Hevy and something else. I can't remember what the one was, but — or Hevy and Strong, I think, are the two that you use to, uh, actually track the workout. Um, and then, uh, Cronometer for the food, Oura for sleep, and then Apple Watch tracking just the overall, uh, heart rate and duration of the, um, of the, uh, actual workout. I do like the Apple Watch for elevation on those stair climbs. It's giving me the kind of, okay, how much elevation did I get? Um, and that's been really cool. There's an app that gives you an analytics dashboard that really puts everything into perspective.

One of the things that I've got to work on right now is — and I think is symptomatic of really heavy training — is the sleep issue. So, sleep hygiene being so important. You know, I have a tendency to bring my phone to bed. I want to actually wake up and, you know, start working at odd hours, and that's just not good. So, now I'm going to move into a phase of heavy discipline around — the phone goes away. Uh, going to take that bath with Epsom salts at night. Going to do my stretching, drink a little lemon balm tea, wait a minute, brush my teeth, go to bed. That's it. Uh, and make sure that I get the right amount of sleep. And, um, that's tough because I'm a light sleeper, but I do think when you're training super hard, you're going to have those moments where your just body is wanting to wake up. I don't know why. Why is that, by the way?

There's, you know, several different reasons. I mean, one of the ones that is more commonly discussed in this arena is the whole idea of what's happening, happening with cortisol, uh, in the middle of the night when we're sleeping. Are we having, you know, a cortisol spike that's untimely, that's driving alertness when we should be calmly, peacefully sleeping, recovering, rebuilding? Um, you know, there's oftentimes the issue of some nocturnal hypoglycemia, or a drop in blood sugar, that can also signal a cortisol spike, right? What does cortisol do? It's promoting gluconeogenesis through the liver. It's going to increase blood sugar, and that is, you know, going to be something that, that, that hypoglycemic episode, uh, is oftentimes, you know, what is — what is the impetus behind that. Um, so, you know, people may wake up in the middle of the night, 2 to 3:00 a.m., with a sweat. They may wake up, you know, with a, with a sweat and a craving for carbohydrates or something, you know, some form of caloric, uh, exposure. So, um, you know, all things to take into consideration, but there's plenty of reasons. I mean, you know, PTSD is a common driver of nighttime wakefulness. Um, you know, any number of things, absolutely. But, uh, in this discipline, I think commonly we're evaluating cortisol. We're looking at somebody's overall stress load, whether they're stuck in that fight or flight. How much of a high-achiever, type A personality are they? Are they constantly, you know, on the go, looking for the next thing? Um, so, things to consider.

Um, I want to throw it back real quick to, um, you know, the, the Cronometer that you talked about, because I'm not familiar with that app. Of course, I, you know, do, do a lot of recommendation for, uh, following macros here in the practice. And one of the things that I've been recommending lately for people who are relatively on the go, right, but they're still wanting to dial in exactly how much they have been consuming in terms of grams of protein, fat, and carbohydrates — it's an app called Cal AI, and it is pretty impressive. I mean, you, you literally take a picture of your plate, and it, down to the gram, will analyze your meal and give you x amount of, uh, protein, x amount of carbohydrates, x amount of fats. It's a great way of seeing what you're consuming when you have a busy, on-the-go lifestyle and want to really dial in those macros. So, I think that's pretty cool. I'm interested in checking out this Cronometer that you were talking about, because I'm not familiar with that. I think that that's very cool.

One of the things I love about the way that you run your clinic is that you're able to establish a baseline. And establishing a baseline for anyone, whether you're going to enter in as a novice, as an intermediate, or as an expert level — you know, what we'll call a trained person, somebody who's got a lot of experience — you need to know where you are. And that starts with a whole set of tests. Um, and so, you know, we hear, like, Abid Hussein talking about people — you know, half of the people who have heart disease never make it — when they have an event, never make it to the emergency room. Worst thing that you could possibly do is ever start a course of exercise that's going to be strenuous without getting a solid workup and understanding exactly what you're dealing with. That's going to be blood work, uh, InBody scanning or DEXA scanning, or whatever it is — the scan that, uh, you know, Bod Pod, whatever it is that they're, they're using. Uh, I'm not a big fan of, like, Hume scales or the other one that they, they've got out there. Um, but I think, you know, working with your provider — one of the things that you have in your practice, PNOE, who, for those that don't know how it's spelled, it's P-N-O-E, means breath in Greek. And man, what an amazing — that was an amazing experience. It's something I highly recommend. And then really being able to track back, taking a look at the blood work. Hey, um, you know, C-reactive protein can be a really key indicator of what's going on for you. Uh, taking a look at your insulin sensitivity — training hard, your insulin, you should, you should have better insulin sensitivity. Uh, if you're not getting that, then what's going on? And then ultimately really checking in on the diet. So, we talk about personal training. We talk about, um, you know, nutritionist, or, um, just being — you know, I mean, I think there's a ton of information out there where you can figure that out.

And another thing I want to mention, just to totally switch gears a little bit, Jock, is this whole idea of a deload not necessarily being associated with a complete cessation of activity, right? It's not like somebody's going from five, six days of heavy lifting in the gym to all of a sudden they're the couch surfer. What we are trying to achieve with the deload is really just a reduction in the volume or a reduction in intensity while still maintaining some, you know, some semblance of activity, right? I mean, for you, that still looks like what — you know, at least achieving 10,000 steps a day, or, you know, walking a few miles a day, right?

Absolutely.

You mentioned before that you were still dialing in those protein requirements. You're not skimping on the protein at all. Carbs are down a little bit. So, it's not like you're just going from 100 down to zero and expecting that everything's going to be, you know, just okay. You got to — you got to continue to maintain some level of activity, some level of mobility, and, and the body's really going to appreciate that.

100%. Without that movement — I mean, I — you know, cartilage doesn't have an actual blood supply, right? But ligaments and tendons have, um, some, and the reality is you need that. So we've got — yeah, we got to keep the circulation going. The other thing, too, is the lymph system just doesn't have a pump like the heart. So we've got to make sure that we're squeezing these muscles to keep everything going. And if you're trying to clean up, lymph system is, as we know, critical to that. So, um, yeah, the, the activity continuing on, um, although, you know, it's kind of funny because it gets a little leg heavy. Um, you know, walking and riding, uh, Peloton tends to be a little leg heavy. I really wanted to lay off on the upper body, simply because, you know, I have a, uh, an old wrist injury that is pretty significant. And, you know, so I'm trying to give shoulders and wrist a break. And I think that kind of goes back to the old Arthur Jones, Mike Mentzer, uh, periodization. Uh, Dr. Farie talked about it, like, you know, 10- or 11-day cycle, kind of looking at things and how you periodize your training. I don't think I'm ever going to be one of those guys. I think I'm always going to be a guy — until probably can't do it anymore — that is always like, hey, I'm going to push it in the gym six days a week of working out, and I'm going to take that one down day, and in that down day, I'm going to take a walk. I'm going to keep it going. Uh, so activity is absolutely critical, especially if you're trying to achieve the goal that I'm trying to achieve.

Hey, back to the Cal AI. That is super cool. I'm really looking forward to checking that out there. The great news is there are just a number of these apps that are out there. So, Cronometer is great. Um, and then Cal AI, definitely going to look into that. You may — I may use both. Uh, my son is, uh, just about to publish his Teleacted app, uh, which is really cool. Uh, his name is Jack.

I like that. I like the, the name.

Yeah. Yeah. So, um, you know, Jack was a competitive athlete, um, and, you know, has competed at a very high level and knows sort of how to train and has been training. He actually — the kid was training — I shouldn't say kid. He's a young man now. But he's been training since he was, I think, in seventh grade.

That's way — I love that. This — the whole story behind it, too, that we talked about it at calm. That's epic.

Yeah. Yeah. That, I mean, the notion of, uh, how that all came to be, and someday we'll share that story. But it — just to see those guys. I mean, they just — I mean, it was interesting to watch them grow from being these little kids into these just full-grown men that, um — you know, I was doing the stairs with him the other day, and I was like, "Okay, man. You win." Just, like, I'm not competing on your level anymore. Those days are behind me.

But, um, yeah, I think the, the notion of having lots of access to apps that can help us now really visualize — before, you know, like, so many of things. Like, I loved about the PNOE is that you're getting information that you wouldn't otherwise be able to get. Where, where are you crossing over from burning fat into, uh, carbohydrate? That, to me, is, you know — not only to know what your VO2 max is and start to set some goals around that, because we know that's going to be absolutely critical, uh, but also to be able to see, okay, how am I metabolizing the food that I eat? And we came away from that talking about how I need more fat in my diet, which I kind of backed off of, um, and kind of lowered it down. I think hormonally — excuse me — I think hormonally you, you see that when you start to lay off that fat. Uh, and of course you want good fat, right? We're not, we're not talking about Snickers bars. Um, in my case, I like, you know, just really, really high-quality olive oil. I think that is, like, the — that's the end. Not heated. I, you know — if anything's hitting the pan, it's, it's, uh, it's out. I don't want it heated. I want it just as it is.

Though, you know, some people might say diet's a little boring, but I think once you also get used to eating that way, man, I'll tell you what, how sensitive you become to when you eat something else. You really feel it. Before, uh, I can say that I was sensitive, but not this sensitive. Now I'm at a point in time where it's like I've got it so dialed that, um, you know, it's impossible to, to go out and do it any other way for me at this point in time. I love things like kimchi, but in the right amounts. I love greens in the right amounts. I love sweet potato in the right amounts, white rice in the right amounts, and then lean protein. Um, so in this deload, the diet is just absolutely critical, going from, you know, somewhere around 275 on the grams of carbs down to 225 for a period of time, just so we're not, uh, you know, having too much, uh, caloric intake on board, uh, when we're not burning it off.

What else are you using to sort of amplify your period of time where you're, you're backing off a little bit? I think you had mentioned sauna earlier.

And this is day three of seven, and I have not been to the sauna. Um, so the reason for that has been that I felt, coming out of that Supercharger, like I had maxed it out, and that was actually with a two-week taper. So coming out of that, uh, moving from heavy weight, uh, moving down into the sort of lighter weight — which was still heavy, but lighter weight, more reps, training differently than we were training before, more of a Jay Cutler style of training, uh, with, you know, lighter weight, higher reps, um, stuff up in the, you know, 12 range instead of six to eight, where we're up in the 12 range on, on a set. Uh, I think one of the things that is important for people to understand, too, around that, while we're talking about reps, um, you know, the people can talk about reps, but the reality is how quickly you're doing them makes a huge difference. So, getting a cadence, whether that's a one up, uh, or a two up and a four down, or a three down, or a two down, um, makes a huge difference in how you train. And when under load, you've got to be careful. That's where that workout partner comes into play, to be right there with you, because you, you know, if you're going to have something where it's like, okay, this is not working in this moment, having somebody there as a safety. It's one thing to lock stuff off in a squat rack and go, okay, I've got these brakes on. But if all of a sudden you go, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa — having somebody right there to be able to push that weight back up for you is going to make a huge difference. And that — um — I owe a huge debt of gratitude.

It's also great when you get to that failure point and you need just a little bit of assistance to get that one last push or pull, right? Um, so I, I 100% agree with you, and also love the, the idea of the amount of time that you're taking with each rep, right? I mean, I know that personally, when I'm in the gym and I'm pushing, pulling this, that, or the other thing, um, you know, the, the decline or the eccentric movement, you know, often feels like just as much, if not more, progress and work than the original effort, you know, and, and that's when I know I'm, I'm really doing good stuff in the gym. So, totally get that, totally respect that, and, uh, I think that's all — that's awesome.

There's just so many people — I see it happen in the gym every day. They, they, number one, they don't know how the exercises work. They don't know the body positioning. They are truly what I would call novice. I never like to call somebody a beginner, like, you know what I mean? You want to be encouraging people in the gym to do, you know, try to — sometimes it's hard not to go over to them and say, "Man, if you just make one adjustment here, you're going to get so much more out of this exercise." But you can't. It's just not a cool thing to do. Um, unless somebody comes and asks you — that happens occasionally — "Hey, how could I do this better?" Uh, the reality is that, you know, when we're in the gym and we're training, it's pretty intense anyway. We're locked into what we're doing, and, like, it's almost like a blur. Everything around me is a blur. I don't really see or hear what's going on too often, but every once in a while you see somebody doing something, like jerking, wagging around, and it's going to — and that has, you know, proven to not be a great idea for a lot of people. That's where we see a lot of injuries.

So really understanding, okay, what is my, what is my, uh, progressive overload? What is my rep count? Um, how am I going to manage those reps? And how am I going to know when I — that, that point that you just made — I need to signal to my workout partner, hey, we're going to get into a forced-rep territory here. Uh, so if, if that's the case, uh, I'm going to need to help you get up on the concentric, and then on the, on the eccentric portion of the exercise — just using a curl as an example — uh, on the eccentric portion, I'm going to need you to also stay with me. So in case I just give, uh, it's, it's there. I had one the other day. I was in the gym, um, and my workout partner — regular workout partner, uh, the, the world-famous Zack Hayden, uh, strongest, strongest dude ever — um, wasn't there. And so I had another guy in the gym that I knew. I said, "Hey, I'm going to be doing something that's going to really tax me, and I'm going to, I'm going to go to absolute failure. When I get there, I'm going to need you to grab that weight." He said, "No problem." Got right down there. Help me out.

That's the other thing, too, I think, about gym culture that I love, is when you take a deload, you're kind of like, I can't wait to get back into the gym. There's a whole community of people that you've built. You have this gym that you work out — you, you took us there. You got us passes. That was super generous of you. That is a phenomenal facility.

Wow. Wish I could say thank you, but it's not mine. So, uh, but yeah, it's, it's a cool place. It's, uh, two stories. They have an MMA gym upstairs and training facilities. They do all their spin classes and, you know, um, all the classes that people can want to explore. They've got a sauna. They've got a massage room. They've got an enormous amount of machines. Uh, they have an area in the back where you can, you know, push the sled. You can work with battle ropes. You can do kettlebells. You can do medicine balls. Um, they've got a posing room. So that's, you know, pretty cool for some people. Um, yeah, it's a, it's a good place.

I, I'm like you, Jock. When I get in there, I kind of gray out around the periphery, and I just get focused on what I'm there for, and that's to be a little bit better than I was when I showed up when I leave, you know? Um, after all is said and done, after I put in the work, after I put in the recovery, I want to know that it's actually worth something. I mean, I go up there, and too often I see people who are yapping away to each other, and I hardly ever see them push a weight, and I'm like, you know, that's an expensive membership to have a conversation or several, uh, while you're at the gym. But to me, it's about going there and doing work.

And, um, one of the things, kind of getting back a little bit into what we were just talking about — one of the things that I always have to remind myself of is, because I am generally high energy, I tend to go through workouts and circuits pretty quick. And in the past, that has really allowed me to get up into that zone three, but also zone four and sometimes zone five territory, when I'm doing, um, you know, some sort of explosive high-intensity interval training, which is, you know, what you want with that. But even just with weight training — you know, weight training in circuits or, uh, supersets, things like that — you know, not blowing through them too fast, taking your time, feeling each rep, feeling them in the muscle group that you're t— trying to target, the, the growth and the benefit and strength. Um, and so I'll pay attention to that. Now, I'll look at my resting heart rate, or I'll look at my heart rate in, in the app. You know, I use a Whoop, so I pull up the, the Whoop app on my phone, and I'll just see what it is in between sets, and if I need to take an extra 45 seconds or maybe even longer before I go on to the next exercise, I'm doing that. And that's because I know that that critical area — what I'm really trying to achieve right now is, is fat burning. I'm just trying to burn down more of the fat on my body, um, and get to, you know, ideally low teens of, of, uh, percent body fat. And, um, you know, we know that the zone two is where we have that FATmax. So, if I can dial it in at the upper levels of my zone two heart rate and, and maintain that for, you know, the 30-, 40-minute, maybe a little bit longer workout, then, uh, I, I know that I'm being effective there.

So, yeah, 100% true. That's, I think, again, the value of — I, I know you work with a trainer, and when you train by yourself — uh, Zack said it just the other day. He's like, "Hey, I'm burning through these workouts a lot faster than I normally would." The benefit of a training partner, number one, is accountability. So on the days when you go, "Ah, man, you know what? I just might just, like, sleep in today. I might not actually go." But then, then, you know, the minute you do that, you're going to regret it later. Um, but that training partner goes, "Are you sure? Let's go." Um, that's huge. Then having them there for safety purposes — ginormous. I mean, that is, like, I think, absolutely critical. Um, and, you know, even the spot, form — I'm asking Zack all the time, hey, is my, is my back straight? Are, are my elbows back? Are they in? You know, because I can't see it, right? I can't — there's no mirror to see in some of these exercises. I can't see that.

And then the other piece that is phenomenal about that, that you just brought up, that I think is critical, is the timing. So, not only are we talking about, you know, timing of our reps, we're also timing about the in— timing the intervals. And we know that, hey, if in between sets we're getting, you know — we can look at that again: 30 seconds, 60 seconds, 1 minute, 2 minutes, 3 minutes. Some people sometimes will say to me, like, "Hey, you're spending, like, an hour and a half, two hours in the gym." And I'm like, "Yeah." And what I'd like you to understand is that I'm also taking appropriate rest in between these sets to make sure that when I'm doing them, I can come back to them with the proper form. When we lose form, we're in trouble. That's when we're going to have some serious injuries start to occur, or the potential for serious injuries. And so, this just comes from years of doing this, understanding how it actually works.

And, you know, let's face it, I'm not training to — I, I'm not trying to look like a bodybuilder, right? I'm not training for — I'm not, um, competing. I'm not doing any of those things. I want to be functional. I want to be mobile, and, um, you know, I want to be able to actually, when I'm 80, uh, be moving around, and that's super important to me. I want to — I want to kind of, you know, age down, if you will. So, I want to sort of, like, make sure that I'm, like, staying the — the things we always talk about.

Slow the pace.

Yeah. Yeah, man. You know, muscle mass, VO2 max, get that visceral fat as low as you possibly can. Uh, is just absolutely critical. And so the reality is I, you know, I feel like I'm in a spot right now where, uh, in conjunction with the plan that we developed, just really dialed. I think I'm, I'm more dialed than I've been in quite some time. And, you know, if you look at the rings for what we had prior, going back years, I mean, there's, there have only been some slight adjustments here in the Supercharger, but those slight adjustments, when you're training at that level, it's massive. Just a massive — like, adding some extra this and that in, um, it can be just incredible.

So, yeah, I think it comes down to discipline. Isn't it interesting that this entire episode really comes down to discipline, and being able to be in tune not only with the devices that we use? So, Oura, Whoop, Apple Watch, whatever it is that you're using, Garmin, whatever, right? Whatever you like, you do. Do you — do you. But what's important is also being able to start to hear your body. Be tuned in to what's happening with your body. Hey, you got a twitch in the gym on a lift, pull back. Uh, 'cause you see people that, you know, push through, and I can remember back in the day when I was younger, uh, training, and it'd be like, uh, you know, there — it's like you're, you're, you're having a pain in your shoulder, and, and they're — and the guys around you are saying, "Push, push, push, more, more, more," and you're trying to back off, but you can't. Now we can do things a lot smarter.

Yeah. And sometimes those things are, uh, you know, one and done. It's like — and I mean that in the sense of an injury that may never leave, you know, an injury that you, you may never not feel. Um, it's happened to me. I mean, it happens to a lot of people. Uh, I, I'm still dealing with the repercussions of, of things that I did when I was real young and, and really pushing it too hard. And that brings us back to the whole idea of, you know, the, the essence of recovery, the importance of a deload, and also just to touch on this whole idea of a trainer. You know, I thrive with that external motivation. I mean, that is my — and I know that about myself. Like, I would, I would love to walk into the gym one day and be like, I got this, you know, and I don't need anybody's help. Uh, that would be epic, right? Who doesn't want to be there? But it's, it's a good thing to know yourself enough to be able to say, "Hey, listen." When I have that external motivating force, somebody telling me, you know, "Listen, your form is off," or "This is when you really need to dig deep," or "This is how you're going to do this exercise. This is how much weight you're going to push right now." Uh, because they've watched the progression over the years. They've watched how your body moves. They watch where your pain points are, where, where your weak points are. Uh, they know exactly how to target those areas on your body and improve your overall strength and mobility. Um, that's such a wonderful thing.

So, I've been recommending working with personal trainers now more than ever in my practice. Uh, pretty much anybody who comes in the door, if I think that they have the resources to be able to afford working with a personal trainer, I'm, I'm punting them off to, to my guy Dante or any other personal trainer at the gym. And, um, you know, the, the results happen. They happen quick. They, you know, happen in a safe fashion. And, uh, people can't help be, be thrilled with that. So, I'm delighted to be able to engage in, in personal training with, with, uh, Dante and myself, and, um, you know, it's the type of relationship that just builds over time, and it's a different type of relationship. It really is. It, it hits at a different level. Uh, you get to know each other in a, in a great way, and, um, you know, what better time than working out and getting yourself healthy than, uh, to have some time with a, with a buddy? Um, so I love that.

I think it's also important, you know, just to touch on who benefits. Well, everybody benefits from a deload, but, uh, who is it really essential for? I mean, who absolutely needs to work this into their plan before they get injured? This is people who are chronic poor sleepers. Anybody who's got some component of high occupational stress, heavy-volume lifters or high-volume lifters, uh, you know, pro-level or masters-level athletes. These are all people that really need to plan the time to take a step back. Doesn't have to be for a long period of time, but, you know, a few days to a week, depending upon the cycle of, of, uh, exercise that they've been on. Um, you know, it's, it's just critically important. People over 40, right? That, that's generally, uh, a good benchmark, or I think a, a good number to just say, hey, you know, my recovery might not be what it used to be, and I'm going to be proactive about it. So, what do you think about that?

The checklist you laid out, uh, I qualify for all of those things except for being a pro at anything. Um, the reality is that, yeah, I mean, it's, it's, uh — I think deloads are just critical for everybody. Um, unless you're just in a, like, you know, a light form of exercise where all you're doing is walking. I can't subscribe to that, or I can't recommend that to anyone. I think, you know, it's absolutely critical that you're doing cardiovascular work and resistance training. Uh, without a doubt, you have got to continue to maintain the muscle mass. One of the things — you know, you've seen that MRI scan, right, where the guy's leg of a 70-year-old that doesn't work out and a guy that does work out?

Yeah.

So, for the viewers out there, I'll just explain this. It is basically a slice of a leg. So, it's like — it's like you're looking at the actual —

Legion.

Yeah. You see the femur, and the guy that's working out has a bunch of muscle and some inner mus— you know, some spots of intermuscular fat, maybe some strands of fat, uh, that are accompanying some of those muscle, muscle strands going down. The guy that's 70 years old and not working out, not doing resistance training, it's like all fat.

Yeah. And some muscle, and the muscle tissue itself just doesn't look as dense, you know?

It's — it's incredible. It's insane. And, you know, what we know now, anybody that's not doing that, uh, is going to pay the price down the road there. There's just no doubt about it. Like, if you want to be mobile, you're going to need to exercise. You're going to need to do those things. So the way I look at it, you know, on a deload, it's like, hey, if you're just walking, um, and maybe just, you know, you're just maintaining some sort of — which is great. I guess that's probably better than nothing. But if you're really training, you're really pushing your body, uh, you're — and also, you know, you said high-intensity interval training. Admittedly, in my gym work, I typically don't do a lot of HIIT anymore. Uh, I just go steady state on the cardio, simply because I find that, you know, my, my steady-state cardio always kind of, kind of winds up in zone three and zone four before I even know it, without even trying.

Yeah.

It's just the way that I'm kind of geared. It happened to me this morning. So, the reality is, I think a deload just makes sense for people to avoid injury, to, um, to really get to that spot where, you know, you're able to kind of let that central nervous system calm down. We're going to see better sleep quality from that. Uh, you're also going to be able to get back into the gym — you said sensitizing to the exercise — get back into the gym. One of the things you're going to find out, you're going to be stronger. Uh, like I said, coming out of the shower this morning, I was like, "Whoa." I looked in the mirror, I was like, "Wow." You know, even — I haven't lifted, uh, upper body, gosh, it's almost a week. Uh, I haven't lifted upper body, um, in what, 5 days or something like that, which normally, that's unheard of for me. And I, I'm like, "Oof, I can see it now." You know, now it's like, okay, the recovery is happening, and the growth is happening as a result of it, which is super interesting.

Going back to the personal training thing, I just want to cover something really quickly. You know, for years I worked with one personal trainer, developed a really great relationship with him. Um, and then there was another personal trainer along the way. And then there was another guy that I spent a lot of time with and worked. And I, I got to tell you, one of the things that was really amazing about him is he could put together combos. I don't know what it was, but the — he, like, these combinations and the way that we would do supersets or giant sets in combination with one of — he'd gas you. Gas you. One guy I had, um, was, like, get you on the rower, on the Concept — uh, I don't, I don't remember if it was a Concept One or Concept— Concept2 back then, but get you on the rower and hammer you so hard, pre-exhaust you so hard. I mean, I literally would throw up.

Wow.

Yeah. Not good. Um, so that — you know, be careful also the personal trainer that you work with. Uh, I think when you take that first session with them, you get a sense of, like, okay, what's really going on? I've seen personal trainers in the gym say things to people that are like, "Wow, really? You're really going to say that to somebody? They're paying you and you're going to say that kind of stuff to somebody?" That's just — that's absolutely unacceptable. This should be a supportive environment, one that's really geared towards helping you achieve your goals in a way that's safe. Um, and now I've gotten to a point in time where, you know, I just prefer to work out with my workout partner. Um, and there's some work that I do on my own, but if I'm doing it on my own, I'm doing it in a very specific way.

So, you know, highly recommend personal training. There's also some great personal training apps out there now. Uh, that's another thing, too, that will show you exactly how to do the exercise. What it can't do for you is stand there and tell you you're doing it the right way. So, those apps can give you an idea, an approximation of what you should be doing, um, which is far better than just doing it wrong. But that, having that person there to say, "Hey, you're off by just a little bit," or "Hey, you know what? Pull your arms up a little bit higher." Uh, whatever it may be. You always see those videos — I don't know if you ever watch those — Charles Glass at Gold's Gym. I mean, it's just, like, some of these old-school trainers, um, and the way that they train people, and some of the things they come up with, um, from experience are just incredible.

I don't know too many of them. I just — I always come back to Ronnie Coleman in my mind.

Yeah. There were a number of trainers over the years that had different styles. Tom Platz was the Golden Eagle. Tom Platz had the best legs in bodybuilding. And so obviously I'm not — I'm not training to be a bodybuilder, nor do I want to look like one. I think that's just not my thing, right? I'm not trying to be, like, a super bulky dude. I'm not into that. But these guys — some of the interesting things that come out of the way that they train can be beneficial, um, in sort of the way that — hey, Tom Platz, I think he was training legs twice a month. You know, they're pushing so hard, so heavy in one session, and then light with so many reps to complete failure, that you needed two weeks to recover from that one workout. You know, it just kind of gives you an idea. So, we go from these people that are doing really light workouts that require no deload, to people that are doing deloads within an evolution at a long — you know, in a long period of time within an actual evolution. Think about that. If you were to work out one time and then you're taking an entire two — you know, it's, let's say, 13 days off because of how hard you trained — that will tell you a lot about what they were kind of doing. Certainly, those people were enhanced, uh, lifters. So, enhanced, for those that, uh, don't know what we're talking about here, meaning that they're using performance-enhancing drugs. Um, and, um, so that is what it is.

You know, I was going to just dovetail on your comment about the personal trainers and say you're 100% correct. I mean, it absolutely requires that you find your person, right? You got to have somebody that jives with you. Uh, and it can't just be, you know, Joe Blow off the street who's going to change your life, right? It's somebody who really understands you, understands what your goals are, um, and is willing to meet you where you are today and tomorrow and the next day, and adjust his protocol or her protocol to your improving performance, right? So, um, and, and the whole aspect of, uh, personality, right? I mean, I, I totally get what you mean about demeaning comments, and comments that are meant to be motivational but they're not put out there in the way that they should, uh, and can be very hurtful and, and potentially damaging to people. So, absolutely. Yeah, you got to find your person. It's, you — it's a process where you need to vet the right personal trainer.

100%. Another app that we didn't mention was MacroFactor. That's another one that's been widely used and people like, and I think is, uh, kind of giving, uh, people a great opportunity to track that, that information. But I love that, that you brought up the, um, Cal AI. So, Cal for calorie, .ai.

Yeah. Mhm. Yeah.

Well, fantastic. Another amazing episode with you, my man. Always great to see you. And, uh, we've got a whole list of really great topics coming up. I am just so excited about the next, uh, eight weeks on the show, uh, because, man, we are going to cover some stuff that is just next level. So, Craig, anything before we sign off, or are we good to go?

No, sir. Thank you so much. Great to see you guys, as always, and, uh, I enjoyed it. Thank you very much for having me.

Hey, you know what? Uh, thanks for having us. For those of you who would like to like, share, comment, subscribe, all of those things, we would truly appreciate it. Helps us, uh, with the algorithm to get it out to more and more people. This information can make a huge difference for people who are trying to make significant changes in their lives. And we want to help you. We want to help them. And, uh, we want to thank you for watching this episode of Cell to Systems. We'll see you on the next one.