Fasting vs. Sauna vs. Cold Plunge: Which Hormetic Stressor Actually Works?

Hey, a small dose of stress makes you stronger, but too much stress can actually make you weaker. That's what we're going to cover today on Cell To Systems episode 26. We're going to talk about sauna, cold plunge, and fasting and how these stressors affect the body. Craig and I wanted to dig deep into this today. Um, we just spent quite a bit of time with each other recently and so it's a great opportunity for us to kind of dig into this.

Craig, you know, over the weekend I actually took a, uh, uh, took an off day on Saturday, which is not normal for me, but I was just feeling kind of maxed out. So, I went to the, uh, sauna, the steam room, and shower and kind of did a lap on that. Um, and just to try to get my body kind of, you know, the recovery going on. It was interesting how I felt afterwards. I hadn't done the steam room in a long time, and I don't know if there's that much data that really says that, um, steam rooms are phenomenal for you, but there's definitely that 20-year study in Finland, uh, where they had these guys in the sauna from four to seven times per week at 174 degrees Fahrenheit on average, and they did, you know, considerably better.

Absolutely. Yeah. I think sauna is one of those things that, um, you know, does have the research, uh, to support it in the hierarchy of some of the, uh, stressors that we can apply to really amplify our health and and those wellness signals in the body. I think that that's probably number two in my book. Um, it's interesting. I actually, there's some recent data out of the past year that also looks at hot water immersion, and there's some emerging, uh, evidence that even taking a hot bath, um, having some ample time in a, um, hot tub, that sort of thing, can actually maybe potentially outperform a sauna. But yeah, I I'm all about it. I wish I had a sauna at home because I would be in that thing regularly,

right? I mean, that would be amazing. Um, you know, it's interesting on the, um, hot bath piece because you think about it, you can add magnesium flakes or Epsom salts to that mix. There's been some question about whether or not the particle size of of the magnesium can actually penetrate the skin. And I've heard two sides of the coin on that one. I I still think it must work for a reason. People seem to get a result from that. And I I'm definitely working a hot bath into my protocol. One of the things I'm I'm curious about is would you, if I'm going to the sauna four times a week, would you say that that's overkill to take a hot bath — and not a hot bath, but a warm bath at night prior to going to sleep, you get your, you know, body temperature up to cool, to start to cool down to go into sleep, to kind of relax, maybe listen, a little stretching before you go to go to bed?

No, I wouldn't think so. I think, you know, it comes down to each individual and their unique scenario that they're, uh, confronted with at the time. But, uh, I think as well, as long as it's tolerated — and this is really the the truth across all of these different hormetic stressors, and we can get into what that is, um, you know, you sort of have to look at your response over time. And that's the big question, which I think we want to address today, is what is the appropriate dose? You know, if somebody's able to tolerate a stressor, whether it's, you know, cold plunge, cold water immersion, uh, sauna use, intermittent fasting, or time-restricted eating, and their biometric data or the way that they feel, the way — if it's a female, the way that they're still able to, you know, cycle and and maintain their fertility. All of these things are good indicators of how successful that actual stressor is for the person and whether or not they're overdoing it. So I think, you know, you have to look at each individual circumstance and really evaluate what it is that they're trying to achieve and the interventions that they're putting into place, uh, throughout the duration that, uh, people may be experimenting with these methods.

I think it's interesting, you know, there's a lot of strong data out there with regard to the lower cardiovascular risk, lower cardiovascular mortality associated with people who are regularly engaging in, uh, sauna use. That Finnish study — there were actually a couple of them, observational cohorts, where they looked initially primarily at men. In the second study, they did incorporate more women into, um, the population, uh, sample. But, you know, the data is strong. The data is strong that there's significant cardiovascular risk reduction. And, you know, for all of sort of the obvious reasons, we're improving cardiovascular loading, we're, um, you know, able to, uh, release toxins through the skin, and, uh, really give ample blood flow, uh, through the vascular system. So it it's it's obvious, almost a no-brainer, why that may be of benefit.

Um, so, you know, in answer to your question, I think that really, you know, if you're able to tolerate it, then then that's great. You know, somebody who's more naive to something like sauna may want to first sort of dip their toes in by doing like a 10 to 15 minute sauna session a few times a week. And really, I think the adequate or the optimal time frame within which someone would really want to engage in in sauna use is probably around the, you know, 15 to 25 minute mark. Uh, and if they're able to do that on a basis of three to four times a week, but then they find that they can increase by a day or two a week and they're tolerating it well, then, um, you know, that's excellent. The things that we want to be aware of, um, would be in the context of, you know, is somebody experiencing any sort of dizziness? Are they having any chest pain? You know, you're losing fluids, there's plasma shifts, there's going to be changes in your electrolyte status, and all these can contribute, uh, in excess to negative symptoms. So, if they're experiencing anything of that nature, then it's a a surefire key to say, hey, you know, need to step this back a little bit.

For sure. Yeah. And I think you can just feel that. There isn't anything that's going to — I mean, maybe your Oura Ring gives you an idea of how, you know, you're getting stressed, um, to a certain extent, uh, but there isn't anything to really tell you then that definitive other than the way that you feel. Uh, if you feel exhausted coming out of it — you know, typically what I'm doing is I'm, you know, hitting the gym and then I'm taking a sauna for 15, 20 minutes, uh, and it's at 190 degrees, so got to be careful of that.

Right, because you're obviously losing fluids through the sweat and the the perspiration that you have during the activity. And, uh, the same is true for people who are on agents that are going to modify their blood pressure or, uh, contribute to vasodilation. So anti-hypertensive medications, other things that are going to induce vasodilation need to be, uh, something that's on the mind of people who are engaging in these things.

But, you know, I know personally, anytime I've gone into a sauna, spend about 15, 20 minutes in the sauna, get a good sweat, I do absolutely feel detoxified after, you know, and and it's hard to quantify that to, you know, with looking at labs or anything like that, but it it absolutely feels like a cleansing procedure. It's very meditative to be in there and and a wonderful experience overall. So,

yeah, I absolutely agree. I mean, I love it. And, you know, that versus the infrared sauna, where we're not seeing the same data or they just don't have the studies to really show what the effects of infrared sauna are.

Yeah, it's hard to say, like, you know, what — what's — I mean, a lot of people are like, oh, that infrared sauna is doing something that's different than a traditional sauna, but at the end of the day, uh, what I can say is, you know, traditional sauna has been great. I used to be a real steam room guy until somebody told me that that's not as good. And, um, and you — and if you think about it, you can never get as hot because if it was that hot, you know, you'd be burn— literally burning, scalding your skin. Interesting to do them in conjunction with one another, uh, just as a nice way to kind of do stuff. But every time I go into the steam room now — I kind of, I just did it over the weekend — I kind of feel like some residual sort of, um, uh, chest, uh, congestion, or, um, doesn't feel quite as good as when I just do the sauna.

Um, when we think about cold plunging, um, for years at Lake Tahoe, just swimming in the lake for for an hour, you know, in in a session, maybe two sessions in a in a day. Um, there's been some talk about strength training and cold immersion thereafter, and that you want to wait four to six hours before — you know, a lot of people are like, "Oh, hey, the minute I'm done with, uh, strength training, I'm basically just going to go get the cold plunge." But that's shutting off some of the, uh, benefits that you get from the exercise. Is that, uh, is that true, or is that, uh, just a myth?

Yeah, I think that with cold water immersion, this is really one of those areas that needs to be studied more in depth. Uh, certainly there's good anecdotal support for it's going to enhance your recovery after a workout, after significant exertional stress on any sort of muscle group. You know, perhaps the cold, uh, can lower some inflammation. You know, we know that inflammation is a flip-sided coin. It has good aspects and it has bad aspects, right? Inflammation is going to help drive repair. It's going to help drive growth. Uh, so yes, what we think is is the case is that somebody who's regularly lifting weights and then going immediately thereafter to engage in some cold water immersion, cold plunge therapy, may ultimately be blunting some of the hypertrophy or growth signal. Uh, and that can ultimately, you know, sort of dampen the strength gains that someone may be trying to achieve through their workout.

So I think that there's good data — again, anecdotal-nature data — that suggests that you can lower pain. Um, you can increase resilience to painful stimuli by engaging in cold water therapy, uh, cold immersion therapy, cryotherapy, this, that, or the other thing. But, uh, you know, there's also risks associated with that, right? I mean, we know that it's going to drive initial catecholamine surge, right? So there's, um, the release of these hormones that are going to, uh, cause vasoconstriction. This puts extra stress on the heart. Uh, so we need to be aware of that for people who have any sort of occlusive vascular disease, people that are regularly trying to monitor their blood pressure, uh, for cardiovascular, cerebrovascular reasons, um, you know, and and all of the other important organs to take into consideration there too. I mean, you know, kidneys and such.

So, um, but again, on the risk side of that, there there's some other things to pay attention to, right? The data shows that there's an increased risk for drowning events. Anytime you were — you've probably experienced this, and listeners have probably experienced this — you dive into cold water, your body's immediate response is to take that full gasp of air, right? So, um, you know, there's tachypnea or increased breathing, hyperventilation, that follows from the cold water immersion. And, uh, the risk for, uh, syncope, for somebody passing out, with tachypnea, with that initial catecholamine surge, even though it does drive alertness, is there. It's a — it's very well-defined mechanism. So there have been increased, uh, numbers of of drowning episodes with cold water immersion. So, it's the type of thing you really — you literally need to dip your toes in first and go slow. Um, it's not a bad idea to maybe have a buddy or somebody there with you when you first engage in that sort of activity. Uh, but yeah, you know, that's cold water immersion — ranks third on my list. It's, uh, you know, I think I think that there's some good information to support it, but, um, not my top choice.

Right. Yep. Sauna. And then let's talk about, um, fasting, because there have been — I mean, that's been a hot topic for, I don't know what, the last 10 years, has just been really hot. Um, and, you know, you see people talk about, oh, I love it, and then they all of a sudden come off of it and they're like, no, I don't want to do it anymore. I'm not — uh, I'm I'm not not about that. I've done my own, you know, kind of run through the different diets and also run through the different, um, fasting windows or, um, as you said, um, time— time-restricted eating. I've gone all the way out to OMAD, so one meal a day, which I found it worked really well for a little bit. Um, but now I find that for the level of training that I'm doing, a steady supply that is really measured — so I I mean everything is just dialed in for, you know, what I need in that moment, and I'm pretty disciplined about how I'm going to do it. Every once in a while I get a little out of whack, but, um, I found that, you know, fasting for me is a simple, simple equation, right? It's, I'm not eating anything past, you know, 5 or 6 o'clock at night. Uh, I'm going to take a little bit of, um, ketones and some EAAs before I go to bed. They have kind of a weird pull against each other, but they work really well for me so I don't wake up in the middle of the night hungry. Um, because I think, you know, we're in that point in time in the middle of the night where we're recovering, and that's where people think, "Oh, I build muscle in the gym." No, you build muscle when you're sleeping, and that's when you're recovering.

Um, so, you know, it's been interesting for me to to think about all these different things that I've tried. And, you know, I'm not eating usually until, um, after I work out. So, I get up in the morning, I do the same thing that I did before: amino acids and, uh, exogenous ketones. I'm drinking a hydration formula that's got minerals and osmolytes, electrolytes, all that good stuff. Um, that's kind of keeping me super hydrated because I know that I got to get through one of those bottles. It's — I don't know what this one is, it's maybe like 32 ounces. Um, had one that was 40 ounces. But, um, I'm drinking one of those and then another just plain water going into the sauna, and I'm getting through those by the time I'm done with the sauna.

So, making sure — I I love your point, staying super hydrated during that period of time. Really important.

Very important. Yeah, fasting is my number one. I I think that this has the most evidence to support it. And, you know, this is not something that you can prescribe across the board. Uh, the protocol has to be individualized per the patient. There are some people who really shouldn't be fasting at all. Like, when we outline your regimen that you're going through now, you know, you're working hard, you're you're in the gym every single day, you know, six, sometimes seven days a week, you have a lot of caloric requirements. Your energy expenditure throughout the day with all of those activities that you're engaging in is really high, right? So we want to provide the substrate, the, uh, energy for you to continue to fuel your body and also meet the demands of muscle growth, which is what you've been shooting for.

So, you know, fasting in your situation — if if you were to say, "Hey, what would you recommend for someone like me who's really active in the gym, looking to accrue lean muscle mass, look to burn through fat stores?" — um, then what I would say is really just that time-restricted eating where you're absolutely, you know, timing your caloric load. You're providing that time, uh, throughout the evening for repair and recovery. Uh, you're starting to get into, you know, some mild ketosis. Insulin levels may drop around that 12 to 16 hour mark. You're starting to utilize some of the glycogen stores, uh, in in your muscle and and through the liver. Um, and your body is relying more heavily on those. It's really operating in a state of of homeostasis, right, of good optimal balance. So meal timing, and maybe having an 8 to 10 hour window for somebody who's, uh, high achieving in the gym, working through a lot of activities, uh, is a good starting point, uh, for somebody like yourself.

And I think that, you know, if you look at other situations, other patients who who could benefit from some more aggressive intermittent fasting over a period of time — well, consider somebody who's overweight, somebody who's obese, somebody who's insulin resistant. They're really requiring their body to adapt to other energy sources and rely more heavily on those energy sources. So, more aggressive fasting periods for them a few days a week. I I express to my patients a few days a week where you're really trying to hit the 16-hour window of no — no calories, using the 8 hour feeding window. This can, again, do all those things that I just mentioned, which is lower the insulin level, start to mobilize fatty acids, which your body's going to break down ultimately and use as as ketones for energy, and then mobilize those glycogen stores, the stored energy that's found in your liver and also in your muscles and other places throughout the body. That's really important.

And we know that that lowers inflammatory stress. We've talked, uh, you know, many times on this podcast thus far about AMPK signaling. That's the pathway that we otherwise know as the, uh, energy conservator, right? It's going to amplify the way that, um, insulin receptors are expressed, uh, on our cells, amplify glucose uptake from the blood to lower those baseline blood glucose levels, and help really sort of drive some of these processes that activate ultimately what becomes our — the activation of our our longevity genes, our sirtuin genes. Uh, so I think that it's really beneficial for people who are overweight and obese to start out a protocol like that a few days a week. You know, talking about in excess, um, I'm not going to recommend that they do this five, six, seven times a week. You know, a few days to really start to improve that metabolic signaling in the body, lower inflammatory stress, um, and start to right the trajectory of of their health.

Um, you know, there's other people who really should take into consideration what sort of fasting may or may not be optimal for them. I mean, pregnancy is not a nutrient deprivation time that you want to — you want to focus on. You need to provide adequate nutrients. Um, individuals who are older, who are in a, you know, catabolic or stressed state, they're breaking down muscle and yet they're not replenishing protein enough — this is not the person that you think, hey, you know, we're going to lower your inflammation, we're going to get you better by fasting, right? We need to improve their overall — the overall availability of nutrients for them. So, got to be cautious with this. But, you know, lot of good research, uh, about calorie deficit, cal— working in a calorie deficit and overall time-restricted eating for long-term health and wellness.

Yeah, really interesting too. And when we move over to the GLP-1 side of things, where we talked about extensively on this podcast, you know, we have those people who are on GLP-1s — uh, your patients that are on GLP-1s that basically all of a sudden they just feel like they can't eat, um, and they're having a hard time making their protein macro, uh, to maintain muscle mass. Um, that's where it's critical that they're in the gym training, obviously, to signal that. Hunger and then the thirst signal just drops off also. So they have a hard time hydrating, um, which is — I think, you know, in my experience, I think it's like you work through that plateau. You kind of have to force your way through it to, um — from what I understand, to really get to like, hey, you just got to keep drinking water, you got to keep eating that protein, even — you eat through it, um, in order to achieve it. That's also an interesting thing for people who are, like, fasting not because, uh, they want to — they want to fast, it's because they now have no other option to. And I guess that's the — that's one of the benefits of of the GLP-1s.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, these are miraculous therapeutics. I I even hesitate to call them medications sometimes because I I don't necessarily give that label to them. I I think that they are really cellular therapeutics. And, uh, of course we know that appetite is suppressed, that protein intake becomes paramount and critically important for their long-term success on these medications. This is one of the areas where I love to implement protein shakes. You know, just a a morning protein shake, 26, 30 grams of protein, maybe add some creatine in there to optimize cellular volume. And then, you know, that's something to also consider later on in the day, especially for somebody who may be overweight, low appetite, low hunger, um, you know, and and so how can we optimize their caloric needs and and help them meet their caloric demand while ensuring that they're also getting the protein. So 50 grams of protein through shakes delivered, you know, once daily or or, you know, split into two different shakes throughout the day is something that I'm recommending all the time.

Another interesting fact about these GLP-1s really is that ultimately I find, and what I express to my patients, is that these really should be anabolic in nature. They get such bad rap in the press because of the weight loss, the rapid weight loss that happens with such expediency that, uh, people look gaunt, they look unwell, and, um, you know, they're starting to see some of these other changes, the catabolic changes, the muscle loss and sarcopenia. Um, you know, that that's really done poorly. That's a GLP-1 that's done poorly. But if we look at what is inhibitory to muscle growth, it's insulin resistance, it's inflammation, and these are areas where GLP-1s are actively working to improve cellular metabolism. So, if we're utilizing a GLP-1 at what I would consider to be a low dose or a micro dose — and those are really the intro doses for GLP-1s — then I think that ultimately, with adequate protein and hydration and resistance training, these can't help but help your muscles grow. So, you know, they're not going to be majorly anabolic in the in the sense that other, uh, therapeutics or agents may be, but they are improving all of the dynamics, all of the mechanisms in the cell that would ultimately potentiate and support muscle growth when you think about it. So, I think, you know, that's an area where I'm constantly educating patients who are beginning this journey.

Yeah, it's really interesting. I heard a a ad that came on, uh, hey, you know, this one, the injectable, is for insulin sensitivity, um, insulin resistance, and this other one is an oral and it's made for losing weight. And I was like, wait a minute, and they both — they both do that. Um, and it's interesting to see how they're being marketed in different ways.

You know what's cool is, um, there's just within the past month or two — we may have talked about this a little bit while you were in town — but there's new evidence where they were looking at semaglutide that was really paying attention to some of the benefits of potential for cartilage regrowth in the body independent of weight loss. So I think that there's going to be this whole new area of investigation with GLP-1s in the future that is going to revolve around the regenerative capacity of these therapeutics. I mean, we already know that they are excellent for brain health. They're going to improve cardiometabolic biomarkers. They can, you know, reduce, uh, visceral fat levels and chop away at, uh, fatty liver disease and things like that. Preservation of glomerular filtration through the kidneys — so improvements or preservation in renal function in in diabetics, but even in just in, you know, normal people who who already have good kidney function. Um, so I think looking at them through the lens of regenerative medicine ultimately in the future is going to be another area that pops up with them. And, uh, in one of the prior episodes, Dr., uh, Ferree had talked about injectable liraglutide, or, uh, liraglutide that was injected directly into the knee, and there was a a small study where they did show that there was some potential reductions in pain and and improvement in the integrity of the joint associated with that. So pretty cool stuff.

You almost wonder, you know, as a guy who's had nine orthopedic surgeries, um, six of which were knee surgeries, two wrist and one thumb — um, you almost wonder if in some way, shape, or form, if that evidence is showing up, is there some sort of prophylactic nature to the use of these, uh, as a preventative measure for tears. Um, that may sound like a crazy hypothesis, but I just thought I'd throw it out there. There was just something that occurred to me as I listened to you talk that maybe may or may not — I mean, who knows, right?

But yeah, I think that, you know, what what we see, getting into the nitty-gritty of it, is is that there's improved chondrocyte metabolism and, uh, preservation, and there's a shift toward how those cells use energy away from glycolysis, which is an early stage portion of energy demand and energy generation, towards the more complete energy generation cycle through what's known as oxidative phosphorylation. And so I think that this is absolutely — I mean, that's that's what that research is showing. That's the the mechanism by which these things are starting to have that, uh, benefit even outside of the whole, you know, I'm lowering my weight, there's reduced stress and pressure on my knees, my low back. So, I think, you know, again, absolutely that's that's definitely an area where they're going to — going to be looking into and eager to see what that research shows.

Yeah, it's going to be really cool. You know, going back to the sauna, I love being in the sauna personally. I mean, I I don't have this feeling like I've got to get out of here ever. I'm always kind of like, okay, I have to leave because I've — I've exceeded the time that I'm — I'm I'm at that point. I know for some people it's not the case. Uh, I never have a problem taking a bath with the Epsom salts. Um, because generally, you know, I'm I'm training at a level where I'm sore, and considering everything else that I'm doing, that's — that's tells you something. So, um, I had a stair workout over the weekend that basically, you know, just trying to improve the times on that. Um, and man, we're crushing it, and you're feeling it for days after. We did legs yesterday and I got to tell you, I was like, ooh, I'm feeling that workout from, uh, from Sunday.

The reality is that, um, I think the sauna is just absolutely fascinating. I don't have any personal experience with infrared sauna. There are these sauna blankets that are really — I I I don't know. I mean, that just seems like a sweat box that I don't know exactly what you're getting out of that. Do you have any experience with that?

Don't. Yeah, I think that the the heat sauna is is the way to go. I personally have not ventured into using an infrared sauna myself, but I I think that they're absolutely wonderful — the, the, you know, the heat sauna and and, um, you know, going in there and and really improving blood flow, improving delivery of nutrients and oxygen to the tissues that are recovering, ultimately lowering your toxin load. All wonderful things, and, um, you know, just needs to be done at an appropriate level, and and that needs to be determined and measured by the patient themselves.

Well, the one thing we always say on this program is that, um, you know, guesswork is is not a good idea. You should be working with your provider on a plan, uh, and making sure that you're really addressing — like, I love what you said. It's like, hey, for certain people, certain things at certain times, and that's a plan that's going to change over time based on where you are. Um, is so important to be working — I mean, I can't emphasize that enough. For years, I think there were the biohackers who were essentially just, you know, experimenting. Uh, you know, I've said it before a million times, it started off, you know, like creatine and amino acids back in the day, uh, when we're young, when I was young. And, um, and then, you know, goes on into all these other different things that were — came along. But I can't stress to people, if you're listening to this program now, please seek out — a some people would call a functional medicine provider, a longevity provider, health span provider, cellular medicine provider. Um, you know, and I — again, I think, you know, trying to find that one that you feel most comfortable with, and it's not always what you see is the degrees on the wall. It's more the training and the understanding of where the science and the medicine really actually is today.

One of the things I respect so much about you, Craig, is the amount of education that you've put into, uh, being just the outstanding provider that you are. I came back from our session and I was really, really thinking about it, really just sort of going through the entire time that we spent, that was a two-day intensive of just, you know, continue— I mean, just imagine that, being able to spend two days with your provider where you're really going through things. I mean, that's a — that's a rare — I mean, I don't know if that would ever exist anywhere else, you know, you ever had that opportunity ever again. Um, but it was really amazing. It was amazing. And to think like, hey, if you can get in with a provider, um, like in your clinic — uh, you have these memberships where patients can come in, they can use PEMF, um, on a regular basis, which, you know, for people who don't know, that's a mat — paired with sauna, I would imagine, is just an absolute win. PEMF, just absolute win. You know, I think this is just an exciting time. There's more and more data coming out, people are making good choices, and it's it's super, super fun to see it.

It really is. Yeah. I I think, you know, the the bottom line for me is that, um — and and I mentioned this in in the beginning of the podcast — but this term hormesis, right? It's it's the body's ability to meet or face a challenge that's going to shift their biology towards adaptation. But the important thing is that you have to have enough recovery to really express that adaptation. So if if you're starting to note that you're not feeling well, that you're feeling sluggish, that your biometric data, if you're using wearables, anything like that, is not in your favor, then you really need to cut it back. And that's why I like for my patients to work with me on these things instead of venturing out on their own and trying to figure things out as they go. It's just not the right approach. But, um, ultimately these things — cold water immersion, sauna therapy, uh, hot water immersion, intermittent fasting, time-restricted eating, you know, targeted and strategic caloric deficit — all can be huge wins in your back pocket when you're really focusing on the other critical elements, which are sleep and nutrition, resistance training. Um, you know, so awesome thing to talk about on the podcast, and, uh, thrilled to be here for it today.

If you had to say, you know, going back to the original topic, what what would be your top three recommendations for you, or for people who are, you know, in similar circumstance for you, in terms of their their hormetic stress and trying to push through those adaptations?

Well, you know, I mean, first things first, every time I'm with you, I always learn something new. Um, so what I would say is I would default to what you said. Um, the reality is that, um, the fasting portion is not something that it initially would have been on my — I mean, I would have gone sauna, fasting, then cold immersion. Uh, I've come off of — I don't really use a lot of cold immersion anymore personally. It's just not something that I do a lot of. Uh, I did work it in this last weekend because I knew — knew we were going to cover it on the show. Now, cold immersion in that is turning the the shower on as cold as you can get it, which is probably nowhere near what we're talking about, real cold.

Yeah. I mean, if you're — you're really talking about going into a cryotherapy chamber, you're for what, two or three minutes, you're sub, you know, whatever the temperature is. You've seen that. Uh, you're getting into an ice bath. That's, you know, these guys have to really work their way into it. I've seen some people where they stay in for a long period of time. Um, and I think I think that's awesome.

As I've said over the years growing up here, I've done a lot of cold water swimming, um, in the — in the lake up in Tahoe, and then also here in the Pacific Ocean. Um, spent a little bit of time in the, uh, cold water in the Pacific Ocean. And, uh, what I can say is that, you know, you're right. Uh, and I've had an incident where I had to actually pull somebody. We swam out to a buoy and, uh, I had to actually bring them back in myself, uh, 'cuz they actually started to go into that shock that you talked about. And, um, I was like, "Hey, just got to breathe through this. Got to breathe, just realize that you can float yourself by breathing." But if you're in shock and that breathing, uh, starts to tail off — it's like, got them into the the swimmer's carry and basically, uh, got them back to shore. But it was close to a drowning incident.

Hypothermia. Yeah.

Yeah, they they were in — they were in bad shape. You know, it's one of those things where it's kind of like doing reps. You know, you're good on certain weights until you're not. And that's why having a workout partner is so, so important, because that's where, hey, when you can't hold it in, you're in the wrong position, and that can, you know, rip something. Um, I — what I feel like is, if you're going — I I think the advice you gave is so, so important. I do a lot of swimming on my own, and, uh, but I always do it in water where, if I need to, I can — if I'm going to get to that, I can get to something where, uh, I can stand up. So what I would say is that having a swim partner, pretty important, even though there are some, like you said, some meditative qualities to doing any of these things where you're sort of like, hey, I get to be in my own zone, I'm not really paying attention to anybody else, I'm kind of doing my own thing. I love to zone out and swim for an hour in, uh, whatever the temperature of the water is in Lake Tahoe. It's at least 45, 50 degrees, I think, maybe higher, but I'm not exactly sure, but I know it's really cold. And it's so cold that when you get in, you're like, you know, it hurts. Uh, but yeah, phenomenal.

The — I I love that. So, I would say for me, the sauna has been a game changer for years. I tried to avoid — tried to avoid it just 'cuz didn't want to spend the time. Now I look forward to it every day. And then time-restricted eating is just the discipline of basically not nighttime emotional eating. I figured out something recently that actually, uh, really works for me. The last little bit of food that I'm going to have is something that's going to carry me forward. It's really good for gut health. It's going to carry me forward. That's Greek yogurt. Uh, is what I've been using recently, is just kind of like the nightcap. Um, and then of course the EAAs and the, uh, ketones.

Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. And that that's really what I meant, you know, for you and as my number one, is that you have to tailor it, again, to the individual, to the patient. And, uh, you know, time-restricted eating, even if it's not fasting in a window of like 16 or 20 hours, something like that, it's still beneficial. I mean, that limitation of when you're getting your calories is helping regulate insulin, which is in turn helping to regulate growth hormone secretion through the pituitary gland, which is helping to improve, you know, tissue growth and and and turnover and whatnot. So, sleep benefits. I mean, we've talked about that. So, um, yeah, it's all about the individual circumstance and and what they're trying to achieve and how we measure it and so forth.

Yeah. Well, you know, another great episode. Until the next episode, thanks to everyone for being here with us on Cell To Systems. Please remember to like, share, and subscribe. Uh, that's one of the things we're really noticing, is that a lot of people that watch the show actually don't subscribe. And when you subscribe, it really helps us to, uh, tell the algorithm to spread this information to more and more people, which ultimately is critical at this point in time where a lot of people are doing a lot of guesswork. Again, on this show, we advocate for working with a provider, because that's where you really know what you're dealing with and you're going to be the safest. Uh, you know, don't go swimming deep water when it's cold without your, uh, without your provider partner.

Yeah, there you go.

All right, we'll catch you on the next one.